ISS and Matk bonuses.

ISS and Matk bonuses.

Postby ZeroX » Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:28 pm

Since the past updates, lindvior and epeisodion, i wonder if any1 noticed that the Devs keep adding m atk bonuses to ISS. First m atk passive to spectral dancer 15% m atk, toggle for m atk % to doomcryer (now 20%) and finaly dance of rapsody which gives 100% m atk.

If debuffs and m atk seem to not have link, and there is no magic skills for direct dmg on ISSes why are they being added? That spectral dancer passive should be giving casting speed instead (so should the toggle for doomcryer) as i see no benefit for m atk.
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Re: ISS and Matk bonuses.

Postby KnightOfDarkness » Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:40 am

The same reason why I wonder why the slowest class in the game became the fastest class in the game.
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Re: ISS and Matk bonuses.

Postby ZeroX » Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:48 am

You mean the pig transformation of iss? :shock:

or u talking about nuker maybe xD (pre-god to after-god)
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Re: ISS and Matk bonuses.

Postby KnightOfDarkness » Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:09 am

The feoh wizard. The BD/SWS were at least decent runners.
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Re: ISS and Matk bonuses.

Postby Sabotin » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:47 am

Maybe it's in the formula, but any effect of M. Atk is negligible. Considering their dual nature (magic&physical) and that being a unique trait among classes, you'd think they'd play more on that part. I still get angry when I think about the million ways they could go on about squishing all the buffers into one class, but they chose THIS PARTICULAR style and just offer lip service to the others.
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Re: ISS and Matk bonuses.

Postby ZeroX » Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:08 pm

Hey sabotin, what style would u wish to have seen?

It would have been interesting to see m atk being added as a source of dmg on physical skills, to have BD able to actualy increase it's dmg proportionally to what it gets from M atk/P atk bonuses, i would like to see Staff type weapon being relevant on such builds and get rid of that empower SA joke, for something for fighters (haste/debuff land rate for wynn :D !!!!!).

Or warcryer/domi carrying ranged m atk mid-ranged nukes for direct debuff (shadow blade/criple attack) with lower duration, and their AOE version being like the Seals of OL where u dont need to target and applying DMG as well. But less HP.
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Re: ISS and Matk bonuses.

Postby Sabotin » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:58 am

I miss the tough as nails aoe support mage style :) .
Maybe I'm just bitter because I lack the infrastructure to play properly since GoD (fast computer/internet/fingers/brain) or the general, non-iss-specific changes in gameplay.

I've also had that idea about a combination of P/M stats that would allow the Iss to focus on either or both and still be fully functional, just better in some aspect than another. Kind of like the summoners before they focused them on magic. I have seriously considered going with an acumen weapon and WIT dyes for example, to be able to cast stuff faster (sometimes it feels very slow, especially at critical moments), but at the end of the day it's just more efficient to go CON, because a 0.1s faster cast isn't going to make a difference when you consider 100+ ping and my reaction time. And magic evasion is just there for the ultimate evasions/escapes anyway. I think they could easily attach magic damage to some skill or other and make it a playstyle decision. Maybe even to basic attacks if they want to keep it consistent amongst different types.

The lip service I was referring to is the weapon masteries (minimal difference between using a 1h+shield/sigil or 2h weapon on the skill) and armor masteries (again almost no difference in the skill). If you look at the Tyrr for example, they get different bonuses with light and heavy, both viable. I feel they could have implemented something like that for the Iss, too. Defensive for heavy, offensive for light, efficiency for robes or something. I believe people would naturally gravitate towards the gear setup that plays on the strength of their class.

The debuffs didn't really get a much better treatment, although the lion's share of that must be the new system. I may have interrupted a few resurrects with oblivion, but that's about it. Scourge doesn't even stop regeneration even if it lands (I had to test it, don't judge me.) In general I think the mez. debuffs are meant for sinlge pvp/oly as it's too difficult to use them effectively in normal pvp. Frogging people can easily be useless if they're not on the fringe of pvp and stoning may do more harm than good if used on the wrong target. Everything is also easily countered with cleanse. Most healers are smart/able enough to use the single cleanse before doing purge and that's that. The one debuff I like is the celestial removal that Dominators get. It's strong, but very specific and it will always do something (allow someone to die, burn a tank's ud, negate your own bad celestial timing etc). Although it may not even count since it's more of a cancel than a debuff.

I think the Iss suffered due to the change in combat speed. From my point of view they've critically reduced the tactical part of combat in favor of strategy (skill combos and standard approaches for each class to pvp, script setups,...) and twitchy action (being faster than your opponent). As I remember there used to be a certain degree of back and forth in pvp, trying to create openings or push an advantage, while at the same time countering the enemy. That's where the supports shined, tipping the balance.
The thing is, I'm not even sure that the higher echelons of design are aware of this issue. As far as I've gathered, most pvpers in Korea (even Chronos/Naia) have top tier gear and skills to boot and in fact, when pvping in a stacked/scripted party I get much more of that nice pvp feeling (even when against other competitive parties and I'm the weakest link). It seems to sort of slow down enough that you can actually support people and make a difference.

And the last thing, the Iss just isn't good at what it does. Wanna do dmg? Reroll. Wanna run interference? Reroll. Wanna heal? Reroll... Being mediocre at all of these things does not help when focus is the key to victory. The Iss is only in the party cause it has to be.
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Re: ISS and Matk bonuses.

Postby KnightOfDarkness » Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:01 pm

One thing that is true is that after Lindvior, pvp has gone from strategically creating openings to kill people to just outright chaining celestials and party UDs and waiting until all the fluff is over before you machine gun people down and see the police sirens across your screen. The one good thing about this is that healers are no longer gods but they really overdid it. A simple fix was just to discredit the heavy armor and brilliant purge thing immediately, fix feoh wizards' defense issue and bump othells' damage to lindvior status and you have yourself some good pvp where the pvp is still reliant on strategy and there's more emphasis on the defensive roles of the tank and iss rather than pinning it all on healers.

High end and low end pvp is completely different. See lowbie pvp is still slow and sloppy but much faster than it was in lindvior but honestly support actually shines more here because of how slow and sloppy it is and any good support will easily turn it into a 1-sided match. In high end pvp, pvp only lasts as long as you can complete your defense chain (party celestial shield, party UD, party rescue) because once that chain is over, the DDs have such a large bonus over the defensive classes (crit rings, high skill power increases over heals, higher weapon enchants over armor) that pvp is over so quickly that you absolutely need to gear your entire party in pvp sets to see any kind of longevity. Now if the next update allows pvp weapons to become a common thing then that will just open more issues.

Korean pvp is even worse. DDs 1-2 shotting one person is common in NA but DDs 1-2 shotting 3-4 people is common in Korea. I do stand by my point that NCsoft should get on their knees and beg Blizzard to buy their games and staff and retire while they still have the chance so more competent developers will be in place to make sure the games don't suck. Even diablo 3 has less issues than L2.
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Re: ISS and Matk bonuses.

Postby ZeroX » Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:17 am

The window of oportunity for slower classes is too low. I was checking a build for wynn in which the cast speed is low..and it probably wont work..cause like Sabotin meantioned, you feel VEEERY SLOW when you are casting something even if at first seems almost instant, and everybody else is shooting 3 skills in less than a second. Actually this was one of biggest problems for tyrrs, they lack quantity of skills with low re-use, and the downtime as a titan/maestro/doombringer/tyrant is too damn big. 2 second skills re-use feels too big when u can be 2 shoted.

But it just doesnt end there, you have to face odds when casting a debuff. It reflects.. agro reflecting (dafaq?!) iss petrify archer or healer, it reflects, 15 seconds face palming on the keyboard.
I also think it's aburd the reflect on AOE debuffs, it hurt those who are good at aoe CC..but nukers noo...shadow snare cant reflect. Those little gimmicks on burst DDs are proportional to their potential on dmg, the more dmg u do, the more these little things benefit you. On defensive DDs is exact oposite, the more you hang on, the more time u waste(which as a defensive class you should afford wasting oponent's time), the less effective your skills become due to high re-use, lack of timing, resist, reflect,etc..

The more updates they bring, the more these crowd control/ defensive classes become more and more solo type and u dotn even get the satisfaction of a kill cause bsoe is cheap, cause DDs run faster than suporters.
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Re: ISS and Matk bonuses.

Postby KnightOfDarkness » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:12 am

Well in a typical fantasy type MMo featuring the basic archetypes of DD, tank, buffer, debuff, healer.

The debuffer's role in solo pvp is to bring other DDs,tanks,buffers,healers down to its level while debuffer vs debuffer is just reducing themselves down to the same reduction in which case it comes down to who outgears/outskills the other in the a-typical mirror match.

Now thats in solo pvp, in mass pvp, debuffers are supposed to be relatively weak compared to everyone else, but its their job to bring everyone else to their level of weakness hence their role in group pvp in weakening the enemy so they A: can't kill you easily, and B: die easily.

Now how does Lineage 2 fit into that? Well we have our 3 main debuff classes.

Enchanters, Tyrrs, Summoners.

Enchanters straight up reduce the damage and survivability of enemies with 2 simple spammable skills, crippling attack and shadow blade and their AOE versions. Other than that their other skills are simply there to stall or cancel strong, slow start, obviously flashing skills like battle rhapsody and blessed resurrection with turning them into pigs, stones, canceling their target or doing their interruption stun rush. Aside from that the only thing they don't do well out of this less is reduce damage on daggers, tyrrs, and archers because -40% p.atk just isn't a big deal on physical skills like it is on magic skills. However magic is a much more prominent threat to iss enchanters than anything else so it could simply be a balancing thing as far as 1v1s.

Tyrr warriors are all about AOE stuns and knockdowns however the only tyrr warrior classes thats good at this are dreadnought and doombringer. The other tyrr warriors fail horribly at this with extremely short and long reuse stuns and knockdowns. On the off-hand they deal a lot of damage for the kind of bulkiness they have but while thats all good in olympiad, in mass pvp who cares? If you can't lockdown a party like a dreadnought or doombringer why should you be brought over an archer, dagger, wizard, hell in even summoners do a lot more damage. As martel put it, most tyrr warriors are just bad summoners. A big problem with tyrr warriors is that they sit in between the AOE crowd control and tankiness of tanks and the close combat damage of daggers and it out of all 3 roles (AOE CC, damage, defense) it fails at trying to do all 3 when it simply can just be booted from the part for a tank and a dagger which can do everything the tyrr warrior can do only a lot better.

Wynn summoners are all about preventing damage through just straight up stalling, like Summoners are the best stalling class in the game. 2 exiles, 2 servitor aggressions, 2 roots, long duration yoke, skill cancellation, along with their general bulkiness, summoners just stop people from functioning and still do a lot of damage. They're like sigel knights only with less stalling capability and more damage. Hell with a +7 bloody amaranthine retributer you can quickly 3-4 shot archers and daggers with high end jewerly without UE. Matter of fact, in group pvp, the only way for a feoh wizard to out dps a summoner (without servitors even) is to use double casting. The main problem with them is the time it takes them to do their jobs. Servitors take too long to start to use their skills, it takes too long to get a row of marks ready, it takes to long to lift someone and both methods of their roots (cubic and deathgate) suck just like the enchanters.

Now while normally these three classes do fulfil their function as debuff classes in they DO weaken other classes down to their level in their own unique ways, the biggest problem comes with how debuffs are countered. And man are they hard countered.

First is the biggest issue of them all which is brilliant purge. Brilliant purge by itself isn't bad, it only lasts 8 seconds and you won't see it again too soon... if the healer is alone. The problem comes with 2-3 healers using it in succession, then it becomes a big problem. Its not as big of a problem as it was before lindvior when every DD did terrible damage with or without debuffs but its still pretty big as every class is reliant on debuffs, some more than others, and unless you're a well geared othell rogue you're not going to be killing anyone under brilliant purge and decent healing even with help. This really hurts the warrior and summoner because half their skills rely on debuffs landing to even DO damage. And without these skills, what they have left to DD with is absolutely pathetic. The only fix to this issue is applying a debuff after brilliant purge use forcing a time period where it can't be used like they did with party celestial shield which if it hadn't had that debuff that'd be an extreme issue in itself.

Second is mystic immunity and while you are giving up battle rhapsody its like... boohoo your PvE experience got a little worse but your main healer is now a god and this is just part of the leftovers from just failed development that still hasn't been cleaned up like duelist spirit, the buff servitors from summoners, and etc.

And third which DDs face to but debuffers face the worse in the main pvp that matters (mass pvp) is the crowd control debuffers mass reflecting damage and debuffs to themselves. Now with the debuff immunity stacking this goes two ways. You are a dreadnought and you either stun lock yourself or tickle everyone. Great gameplay options there.

And fourth you have this gradual role confliction thats been seeping in ever since lindvior. You have feoh wizards now providing their own max m.def reduction as well as reducing stats and providing interruption all of which is the iss enchanter's job only the feoh wizard does it better as well as dealing massive amounts of damage. You have daggers chain stunning, target cancelling and knocking down people as well as providing its own debuffs to deal extra damage on top of others debuffs which is the tyrr warriors job only the dagger does it better as well as dealing massive amounts of damage. The Yul archer will soon be spamming stuns from a far distance as well as target cancelling while performing even more damage than in valiance which is again interfering in the tyrr warrior's job. While no DD can perform the wynn summoner's job, the tank can do it better and while it suffers the same issue of debuff immunity affecting both its debuffing and damage department though tanks aren't supposed to be dealing damage in the first place, tanks still have their all necessary role of providing party UDs and noble sacrificing which unlike the wynn's role, cannot be countered.

So with 3 main methods of shareable, prolonged debuff immunity in a metagame so dependant on debuffs on top of being able to cleanse faster than debuffs can be applied on top of PvP being sped up dramatically with the retarded amounts of damage each of the main DD classes can dish out in so little time along with performing the roles of said devoted debuffer classes. Its no wonder why most pvp parties across the world mostly has nukers, archers and daggers except korea which mostly has nukers because they are the only that continuously scales linearly as it stacks more equipment onto itself and with its prominent AOE capability its only a matter of time where you go from 1 shotting players to 1 shotting parties with a feoh wizard. Making it the hands down best DD in this game as while the healer and summoner classes can scale the same in damage, no class can reach that peak of AOE annihilation. And god forbid I see the day of a stacked feoh wizard with a max level valakas retributer like I saw on the Lindvior russian test server where one player solos several parties with just a boxed buffer, no problem. And the scariest part is, he hasn't even a hero.

Overall, and I mean this in the least racist way possible, but I swear the NCsoft developers are not Koreans because I've never seen Koreans this stupid.
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