About Enchanting Skills

Re: About Enchanting Skills

Postby Krissa » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:55 pm

calaterean wrote:because my clan members are kinda, too preoccupied with their own problems, so i cannot join them for hunting
but thank God finally the High Five is impelemented in my country, so i kinda relieved i can do the solo hunt

Find a less clueless clan. SwM in a good clan has no time for soloing.

calaterean wrote:and may i know what type of muse you have? i'm still kinda confused in building my muse, people said its best for muses to be damage-dealers, but since i'm concerned about the mystic muse my mate play, i kinda thought building it "tank way" is not bad either

The main role for SwM is to sing. The secondary role is to protect the healers (but not really to tank). The rest (pulling, PvE tanking, damage dealing) are very party setup dependent. The primary grinding spots for a lowbie SwM (FoG, or joining higher-level parties in GC, Stakatos, DV...) do not involve a lot of damage dealing, and only the FoG puller role involves some tanking (and only in emergency situations).
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Re: About Enchanting Skills

Postby Keisse » Fri Apr 08, 2011 4:32 am

Smittie wrote:And how do you propose I make it more for survival? If that isnt much, what is?

Please remember, it does nothing more than sing, it doesnt engage the mobs, its a boxed sws...

So past putting hp+++ gear on it, how would you make it more for survival?


Of course, it's survival enough for a boxed char :3

I clearly said it's not, "for me" =]

Krissa wrote:If you enchant it for anything but +Time, your healer will PK you. Enchanting it to +6 Time is actually the first priority for you (and there is no real need to enchant it further).


Hmm I tried that route before, and that didn't happen to me =]

I was on +12 Cost before I switched to Time for easy management, no real problem there O_o

Smittie wrote:She speaks the truth. There is nothing more annoying than having to heal up the "missing hp" each time. The song is a waste of mp prior to atleast +3, but +6 is much better.


Going +Cost doesn't mean you'll always have to get the "missing HP" for each cycle of songs and dances. It only means you have to stay focused more on your song / dance bar, no ? Of course, +Time makes it easier for a lot of people. I'm not saying it's wrong / right, I'm just saying that THERE ARE people taking +Cost. In giving advices, we should list out the possible solutions, right ? :3

Krissa wrote:Find a less clueless clan. SwM in a good clan has no time for soloing.


I don't know about your server, but here.. Also where calaterean's playing, I highly doubt there are active hunts on FoG / GCs / Stakatos anymore. People going DV will take 80+ SwMs or even better, 85 boxxed swm (I know some who do so). I too wonder why she won't look for another clan (or server) lol, friends ? XD

Krissa wrote:The main role for SwM is to sing. The secondary role is to protect the healers (but not really to tank). The rest (pulling, PvE tanking, damage dealing) are very party setup dependent. The primary grinding spots for a lowbie SwM (FoG, or joining higher-level parties in GC, Stakatos, DV...) do not involve a lot of damage dealing, and only the FoG puller role involves some tanking (and only in emergency situations).


It's true that the main reason for SwM is to provide songs + help protect healers / buffers, but that doesn't stop SwM from being a good DDealer backup / Tanker in some cases. At least, those who have SwM as their main character will want to be able to do so. Then again, in hunting solo, you gotta be tanker and DDealer in all situation :3
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Re: About Enchanting Skills

Postby Krissa » Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:03 am

Keisse wrote:Going +Cost doesn't mean you'll always have to get the "missing HP" for each cycle of songs and dances. It only means you have to stay focused more on your song / dance bar, no ?

No. It means that if your party wants to keep a proper amount of songs/dances, your recharger will need to spam recharge on both bards during each redance, as if there were no better things to do at the same time. Sometimes your recharger is your only healer (in DV, for example), so go figure...

Keisse wrote:I don't know about your server, but here.. Also where calaterean's playing, I highly doubt there are active hunts on FoG / GCs / Stakatos anymore. People going DV will take 80+ SwMs or even better, 85 boxxed swm (I know some who do so).

I have nothing against taking a lvl 76 SwM clannie into my DV group. It's not like she is going to stay lvl 76 for long there ;)

Keisse wrote:
Krissa wrote:The primary grinding spots for a lowbie SwM (FoG, or joining higher-level parties in GC, Stakatos, DV...) do not involve a lot of damage dealing, and only the FoG puller role involves some tanking (and only in emergency situations).

It's true that the main reason for SwM is to provide songs + help protect healers / buffers, but that doesn't stop SwM from being a good DDealer backup / Tanker in some cases. At least, those who have SwM as their main character will want to be able to do so.

As I said, in a good clan SwM doesn't need to worry about her tanking/damage dealing abilities until at least 80, because these abilities are irrelevant at their hunting spots.
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Re: About Enchanting Skills

Postby Smittie » Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:13 pm

Keisse wrote:Of course, it's survival enough for a boxed char :3

I clearly said it's not, "for me" =]


Going +Cost doesn't mean you'll always have to get the "missing HP" for each cycle of songs and dances. It only means you have to stay focused more on your song / dance bar, no ? Of course, +Time makes it easier for a lot of people. I'm not saying it's wrong / right, I'm just saying that THERE ARE people taking +Cost. In giving advices, we should list out the possible solutions, right ? :3



Ok, what would you change to make it more for survival "for you"?

Ok, let's say you go +Cost on song of Vitality. Where are you gonna put the song when u sing? First? Last? First AND last?

Song of Vitality is waste of mp for everyone if you have to heal up the hp every time. By going cost, you will lose Song of Vitality whenever the rest of the songs/dances fade, which means you will have to sing it as first song (to keep it up) but also as last song (to make sure its the last one to fade, and not having to pay for X number of other songs/dannces to keep it up).

This means that even though you went +Cost in order to save mp, you are either wasting mp from the recharger or the healer, or putting up less songs than you could have.

If you go +6 Time on Song of Vitality you get rid of all of that, the song will still be up way past when everything else has faded.

For my box BD and SWs I have put +6/7 Time on both Song of Vitality and Dance of Fury. That way you always have the extra hp and you sing/dance faster while never losing the extra attack speed.


And as far as not advicing ppl to go +Cost on Song of Vitality. It isn't a viable options. At some point ppl tested both options and figured out +Time to be the better one, in every possible situation. Hence why we dont advice ppl to overenchant stupidly. Your party not complaining about having to recharge you or heal up the hp says more about them and you not being able to figure things out, than you trying to persuade ppl to OE their songs when good advice is being handed to you.
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Re: About Enchanting Skills

Postby Keisse » Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:44 pm

Krissa wrote:No. It means that if your party wants to keep a proper amount of songs/dances, your recharger will need to spam recharge on both bards during each redance, as if there were no better things to do at the same time. Sometimes your recharger is your only healer (in DV, for example), so go figure...


Again, never happened. Look, don't talk about "sometimes", we hunt in different parties here =]

I'm just saying, I didn't have a problem with it. Did I say everyone should follow my way ? No.

Krissa wrote:I have nothing against taking a lvl 76 SwM clannie into my DV group. It's not like she is going to stay lvl 76 for long there ;)


Never said I have anything against that either, but let's ask the person in question about this eh :3

Krissa wrote:As I said, in a good clan SwM doesn't need to worry about her tanking/damage dealing abilities until at least 80, because these abilities are irrelevant at their hunting spots.


And as I said, in her situation, she had to hunt, and thus worry about her tanking / damage dealing abilities :3

Smittie wrote:Ok, let's say you go +Cost on song of Vitality. Where are you gonna put the song when u sing? First? Last? First AND last?

Song of Vitality is waste of mp for everyone if you have to heal up the hp every time. By going cost, you will lose Song of Vitality whenever the rest of the songs/dances fade, which means you will have to sing it as first song (to keep it up) but also as last song (to make sure its the last one to fade, and not having to pay for X number of other songs/dannces to keep it up).

This means that even though you went +Cost in order to save mp, you are either wasting mp from the recharger or the healer, or putting up less songs than you could have.

If you go +6 Time on Song of Vitality you get rid of all of that, the song will still be up way past when everything else has faded.

For my box BD and SWs I have put +6/7 Time on both Song of Vitality and Dance of Fury. That way you always have the extra hp and you sing/dance faster while never losing the extra attack speed.

And as far as not advicing ppl to go +Cost on Song of Vitality. It isn't a viable options. At some point ppl tested both options and figured out +Time to be the better one, in every possible situation. Hence why we dont advice ppl to overenchant stupidly. Your party not complaining about having to recharge you or heal up the hp says more about them and you not being able to figure things out, than you trying to persuade ppl to OE their songs when good advice is being handed to you.


Look, you're not getting my point here. Did I ever, even once, mentioned that +Cost is better ? You seem to be under the impression that I am in fact telling that +Cost is the best option; it's not (If that makes you happy).

My point is; Although +Time has more advantages in every possible situation, +Cost is not necessarily that bad. Sorry but, not all hunting grounds / epic even require SoVit to be up 24/7, based on MY experience. On those situations, since SoVit is only cast once in a while, +Cost helps in not allowing it to stay too much longer and hinder the next round of songs dan dances. And no, I'm not assuming / calculating things, those situations did happen.

Again; Did I ever persuade her to go for +Cost instead of +Time ? Read;

Keisse wrote:As for SoVitality, some people prefer it +Cost, some +Time. It really depends on you though. I choose +Time myself since it's more manageable. The same goes of SoElemental, since it has slightly longer cooldown time, so that allows the song to stay up until it's ready for another round =)


Oh and FYI, I'm on +Time (Again, if that makes you happy). I met people on +Cost, I did once, and I'm only sharing the fact that there do exist some SwMs with +Cost on their SoVit, be it stupid or whatever =]
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Re: About Enchanting Skills

Postby Smittie » Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:26 pm

You dont really have a point. You are basically saying you know that +Cost is crap, but at the same time saying we shouldnt disregard it as an option.

The thing is, it will never be bad to have +Time on Song of Vitality, where as most of the time, even if you only put it up every now and then, +Cost will always be worse.

You're basically just arguing for the sake of arguing.

It's like if I told you that you should enchant Song of Wind for +Time, claiming I had it on my sws and noone ever complained. It would still not be a viable option.

When ppl come here to ask questions on how to enchant their skills, they most likely already checked HOW it can be enchanted. What they want to know is how they SHOULD enchant it. What is the most viable/best option.

So instead of reiterating all the options, we try to give advice based on what is best for all Sws's. Not just the one you play with your non-argumentative friends.

+Cost on Song of Vitality will always be bad. +Time will always be good.

Unless you can come up with a few scenarios where your +Cost helped you do anything, OR EVEN SAVE MP (like that enchant route should have), then don't come here claiming +Cost is even a viable option.
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Re: About Enchanting Skills

Postby SayntLucifer » Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:39 pm

Haha smittie u always find a way to get on someones nerves. Its always entertaining reading ur post.:-P As forthe topic. I have an 83 SwM. Song vit +10 for time(never know when u get parad) and wind, hunt,earth,ward,veng + 12 for cost. Also renew,champ,med,windstorm, and elemental + 9 for cost. Yes i went elemental for cost cause its reuse time. Meaning since i cant throw it up every s/d round why have it fall in the middle when the bd can do zerk when mine is down. Also do have inner rhythm to +9 but like someone said its not much a difference between 8 and 15. If ur just starting out and hopefully ur 80. Id get ur 4 main songs (wind,earth,hunt,ward) to 10 cost. And vit to 6 time. And just stick with IR at 1 or 3 for now. Also depends on what else u enchant on if u want to pvp/oly or pve.
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Re: About Enchanting Skills

Postby Smittie » Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:27 pm

Sry if I seem abrasive, but I really have trouble with ppl trying to pass off cluelessness as good advice.

Will be interesting to see if that guy can come up with any scenarios for his +cost song, although I highly doubt it, he will probably just respond with some deflecting oneliner.
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Re: About Enchanting Skills

Postby Keisse » Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:38 am

Smittie wrote:Sry if I seem abrasive, but I really have trouble with ppl trying to pass off cluelessness as good advice.

Will be interesting to see if that guy can come up with any scenarios for his +cost song, although I highly doubt it, he will probably just respond with some deflecting oneliner.


Would I ? :3

Smittie wrote:You dont really have a point. You are basically saying you know that +Cost is crap, but at the same time saying we shouldnt disregard it as an option.

The thing is, it will never be bad to have +Time on Song of Vitality, where as most of the time, even if you only put it up every now and then, +Cost will always be worse.

You're basically just arguing for the sake of arguing.

It's like if I told you that you should enchant Song of Wind for +Time, claiming I had it on my sws and noone ever complained. It would still not be a viable option.

When ppl come here to ask questions on how to enchant their skills, they most likely already checked HOW it can be enchanted. What they want to know is how they SHOULD enchant it. What is the most viable/best option.

So instead of reiterating all the options, we try to give advice based on what is best for all Sws's. Not just the one you play with your non-argumentative friends.

+Cost on Song of Vitality will always be bad. +Time will always be good.

Unless you can come up with a few scenarios where your +Cost helped you do anything, OR EVEN SAVE MP (like that enchant route should have), then don't come here claiming +Cost is even a viable option.


Oh wow, now you're adding your own points. Read; I don't say +Cost is crap, I even said it's an option. Only that, +Time is better. Which part of that are you not understanding ? I never mentioned +Cost is better, yet I didn't say it is of no use. Don't add your own imaginary points O_o

And like I said, there do exist situations where I only put up Vit ONCE in a while (On fast Pre-Frenzi, Right Before Sublime, Wtv), and then you wanna talk about mp consumes; it stays on (+Time here) until the 2nd round and eats up more MP for the rest of the songs and dances.

I'm not really a person who likes to argue though :3

They've already checked ? You tell me, if I had wtv I need to test BOTH +Cost and +Time for Vit (In epics, party hunt, wtv you name it) will I still ask the way she did ? SP problem, clan problem, no partying, bla bla, and if I still have tested it, at least I'd ask "Hey I've taken +bla route for bla, what about you guys" ?

You know what ? I really never had a problem with dancer and muse requring recharge over and over and causes trouble for the healer (Even if there's only 1, for your example in DV), how did you see bards as trouble ? And is recharger the only way to fill MP ? Hello ? Try partying with players who actually play muse and dancer from zero, if they are even a bit smart, I doubt the recharger's gonna say a thing, EVEN on +Cost Vit if you really hate it. I'm not saying I'm even close to the best Muse players, I'm only telling whatever I know for as long as I play. And I stay on with my point; +Cost on Vit won't kill your party. Different kind of players, different character builds, different party composition, and people will find their own preferred way of improving their characters. And some chooses +Cost. That's all there is to it.

Yes smittie, +Time is on Vit better, should I say it again ? :3

I don't see why this should continue, you wanna go argue, you should do with those who actually go +Cost all the way.
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Re: About Enchanting Skills

Postby Smittie » Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:51 am

Wow, guess you felt like doing a 180 there. First you are defending going +Cost, now you are arguing FOR +Time. Maybe you need to make up your mind.

+Time is the only good choice for OE on that song.

Now explain to me how the +Cost saves you mp if you need to keep up Song of Vitality at all times, please, im dying to know how it doesnt end up costing your party more mp in the end.
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