Summoners in Valiance and onwards

Strangers

Postby random » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:57 am

Btw one thing I would love to see on summoner is a new mark, replacing mark of trick, that makes the target unable to receive immunity and also makes the targets debuffs un-cleansable. This would boost summoner power in 7v7/mass pvp while not having any significant impact in small scale pvp.
random
 
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:26 pm

Re: Strangers

Postby Illogical » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:15 pm

random wrote:Btw one thing I would love to see on summoner is a new mark, replacing mark of trick, that makes the target unable to receive immunity and also makes the targets debuffs un-cleansable. This would boost summoner power in 7v7/mass pvp while not having any significant impact in small scale pvp.


Where is the 'Like' button. I never thought of it, the skill failure is a nice feature but has no impact, the worst that can happen is that you delay a cast for 3-4 seconds. The chances you make castings like Celestial, Battle Rhapsody etc. fail are way to low. Mark of Trick still my favourite Mark to have on Istina, nothing nicer than not seeing her cast Flood. But... using Mark of Trick with said effect and using Mark Retriever for damage will be a bad combination.
Illogical
 
Posts: 615
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:42 pm

Strangers

Postby KnightOfDarkness » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:02 pm

random wrote:Btw one thing I would love to see on summoner is a new mark, replacing mark of trick, that makes the target unable to receive immunity and also makes the targets debuffs un-cleansable. This would boost summoner power in 7v7/mass pvp while not having any significant impact in small scale pvp.


That wouldn't work out well. Against healers and iss enchanters they merely have to celes/stone and then apply immunity to themselves each time they want to use it. A little extra work but nothing a brain (or a script) can't solve. Meanwhile you're still stuck vs guts, berserker rage, UE, etc. It needs something more on the lines of a defense to sustain while waiting out these debuffs in terms of 1v1 pvp. Such as the old servitor barrier. Making your summons useless but in turn you take up to 80% less damage while you kite around waiting for said defense to wear off.

For party pvp I had an idea of a high chance landing debuff with a 5 second duration and a 60 second base cooldown that when applied it froze your buff/debuff status. In simpler terms, you cannot be cleansed, you cannot alt-click off your buffs, elemental destruction is not removed by elemental busters, marks aren't removed by retriever, stuns aren't removed by hitting, bullseye isn't removed by hitting, chaos symphony isn't removed by hitting, you cannot receive additional buffs or debuffs and all your current buffs and debuffs' countdown timer stops for 5 seconds. It will be a skill similar to reset.

So for 5 seconds you can retrieve marks three times without reapplying marks when regarding solo play and in group play you can apply this after applying marks, stuns, bullseye, crippling attack w/e and lock those debuffs in place for 5 seconds which is enough time for assisting DDs to guarantee a kill while in solo play you'll just get free easy hits if you manage to apply them all that is.


Elmar wrote:
KnightOfDarkness wrote:Sorry Elmar, I swear we always turn every topic on here into a summoner discussion at some point.


Discuss away, it's all quiet on the Korean front anyway :)

I guess this is because the developers might have run into difficulties designing the Conquest System in a way that Lionel doesn't conquer all. The Korean players have been freely migrating between servers since that service was introduced (I believe it was in one of the Gracia updates). But during the last year or two somehow all the PvP afficionados have wound up on Lionel, while the remaining servers have become casual PvE servers where players are investing significantly less in overenchanting weapons etc., which is fine when you are overwhelming Lilith by sheer numbers but puts you at a disadvantage in PvP.


Interesting. So they are probably trying to figure a way to make people terver transfer and even themselves out.
User avatar
KnightOfDarkness
 
Posts: 1093
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:04 am

Re: Strangers

Postby Trensharo » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:31 pm

Illogical wrote:
random wrote:Btw one thing I would love to see on summoner is a new mark, replacing mark of trick, that makes the target unable to receive immunity and also makes the targets debuffs un-cleansable. This would boost summoner power in 7v7/mass pvp while not having any significant impact in small scale pvp.


Where is the 'Like' button. I never thought of it, the skill failure is a nice feature but has no impact, the worst that can happen is that you delay a cast for 3-4 seconds. The chances you make castings like Celestial, Battle Rhapsody etc. fail are way to low. Mark of Trick still my favourite Mark to have on Istina, nothing nicer than not seeing her cast Flood. But... using Mark of Trick with said effect and using Mark Retriever for damage will be a bad combination.

Already recommended something like this to cover their debuffs, however such a thing would be OP because almost every class in the game depends on debuffs and this landing on anyone would pretty much kill them in seconds. Every group would have a summoner, assist it, and stack debuffs and plow healers and DDs almost instantly after it lands. PvP would degenerate into a game of "who can do it faster" because such a tactic would be unfailing due to the proposed mechanics of the skill (can't cleanse it and cannot wait it out with celestials, you have to eat all incoming damage - unless you can render yourself untargetable like Iss Enchanters, Daggers, or Archers).

What they need to do is add a cool down to Purge or Make it a Chance to remove x amount of debuffs (Start at two go up as the healer levels). Have no issues with skills like Purification Field clearing all debuffs, granted it's not spammable, either; but the current purge balance is a bit off, though necessary, due to the debuff-dependence of practically all classes at this point in the game.

In order to fix summoners, NCSoft first has to address the bad scalability of the class and then they need to either balance Pet PvP damage or rework their debuff system (which would take more work than simply upping pet damage in PvP). I also think moving to all Physical Pets was a bad idea, and that it made this a much less interesting class to play, IMO.
All Characters Deleted!
I's Freeeeee!!!
Trensharo
 
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:16 pm

Re: Strangers

Postby ZeroX » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:26 pm

Trensharo, no offense but everything that people suggest about to add wynns seems OP to you. :D I can simpathyze that maybe some classes have too much skills to add more skills to them, while some of them should be more split among sub-classes.

I kinda wish they had just put the shadow snare (longer base re-use than nukers), and not be afected by debuffs, it's the perfect skill that it does both offense and defense without adding damage to you...but no everyone thinks im OP for ussing wynn, i win- im OP /unkilable, i die- im a noob/i suck. Coming from archers. lol :evil:

Seriously i liked exile cause i can protect the healer, i liked Knight's idea of "exile uncleansable" since yea it's another freaking dimension...!

Also to add back magical pets as it woudl fit wynn, they would need to fix the buggy feature of comign back and forth, that ass delay on the pets and the ass delay when im trying to heal the pet (which it tries to open the pet window and doesnt heal right away).
ZeroX
 
Posts: 895
Joined: Wed May 11, 2011 10:03 am

Re: Strangers

Postby KnightOfDarkness » Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:54 am

Yeah thats another big issue with the wynn. It's too slow. It runs too slow, has no decent mobility skills, the pets move too slow, respond too slowly, initiate attacks and skills too slowly. It takes too long to setup to attack when every other class can get immediate results and kill before you're ready to start nuking. Like literally in the time it takes to cast marks and retriever for three 5-12k hits, a dagger already did shadow flash and 2 stabs doing anywhere between 20-60k. All the while you did up to 36k damage and maybe cancelled one of their skills and the dagger took no damage and killed them already and shadow flashing to the next target while you're preparing to cast retriever again on the same target and still taking a good deal of damage in return while the dagger has yet to have been hit in return.

In my party setup where I'm on my wynn instead of healing. I usually get 2-3 marks landed before my target dies. Sometimes I get to retrieve once and do about 25k damage before one of my daggers targets, shadow flashes and OHKOs it. Honestly I felt more useful on my wynn before Lindvior when everyone did no damage and the only way to kill anyone was to exile on of the healers and get that 10 second window between bear provoke and mark of trick to mow down a healer before moving on the now solo and vulnerable demigod, I mean healer. At least in that situation I could utilize my skillset to help the DDs to kill whereas otherwise we'd be fighting till one party gets tired of it when going with just 3 normal DDs, 2 healers, tank, iss vs the same party setup. And in those times you could tell the difference between a good and a bad wynn in mass pvp. Good wynns saw 7v7s end. Bad wynns didn't.

Nowadays DDs don't need a wynn to make a target vulnerable to attacks, they just immediately kill it. And that just has to do with how the damage boost to DDs were just simply overdone hence the massive about of healer complaint threads on the forums.

But the real problem is balancing the wynn because as it stands now, it is still a very strong 1v1 character and adding things to it to make it on par as a good choice to take to do group pvp as a dagger/archer/wizard/warrior, you risk making it an absolute monster in 1v1 pvp, you'll essentially a caster with a large pool of heal with self heals and an arsenal of debuffs that will destroy all hope of defeating this class. It'll be way too powerful and will be on the same level of overpowered ness as daggers are now. The thing with other classes is despite being naturally weaker they have skills to drastically boost their offensive and/or defensive power whereas all a wynn can do is stall. The way it stalls doesn't help your party even survive in mass pvp nor does it really help it survive making its only useful stall ability summon barrier which again makes it near useless to the party.
User avatar
KnightOfDarkness
 
Posts: 1093
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:04 am

Re: Strangers

Postby Trensharo » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:10 pm

ZeroX wrote:Trensharo, no offense but everything that people suggest about to add wynns seems OP to you. :D I can simpathyze that maybe some classes have too much skills to add more skills to them, while some of them should be more split among sub-classes.

I kinda wish they had just put the shadow snare (longer base re-use than nukers), and not be afected by debuffs, it's the perfect skill that it does both offense and defense without adding damage to you...but no everyone thinks im OP for ussing wynn, i win- im OP /unkilable, i die- im a noob/i suck. Coming from archers. lol :evil:

Seriously i liked exile cause i can protect the healer, i liked Knight's idea of "exile uncleansable" since yea it's another freaking dimension...!

Also to add back magical pets as it woudl fit wynn, they would need to fix the buggy feature of comign back and forth, that ass delay on the pets and the ass delay when im trying to heal the pet (which it tries to open the pet window and doesnt heal right away).

What do you call a debuff that prevents Celestials and Purges on any target that cannot force themselves out of the fight?

The reason why a lot of suggestions are OP to me is because they are, and people who make suggestions for their own class often go a bit overboard in doing so. It's fairly natural to do so. It happens all the time in every game. It's why Dev teams (in most games, even in their main markets) ignore the vast majority of player input.

From my experience, most of the back and forth with pets happen when you try to spam a skill. Don't spam the skill, press it once and let them go.

As long as the Grim Reapers get 1100 range on all their skills and they fix the Magic Stat Scaling and Auto Attack is changed to a Spike Magic Nuke type skill, the reapers shoud be fine. They'd also need to decrease the PvP damage penalty as there is a lot of gear that pets simply do not scale off of properly (epics, set bonuses, etc.).

The entire debuff system in this game is super bad and was a failed experiment to try to introduce more skill-based gameplay into the game. It just doesn't work well, especially on servers/in territories where programs have become so widely used.
All Characters Deleted!
I's Freeeeee!!!
Trensharo
 
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:16 pm

Re: Strangers

Postby KnightOfDarkness » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:49 pm

Trensharo wrote:
ZeroX wrote:Trensharo, no offense but everything that people suggest about to add wynns seems OP to you. :D I can simpathyze that maybe some classes have too much skills to add more skills to them, while some of them should be more split among sub-classes.

I kinda wish they had just put the shadow snare (longer base re-use than nukers), and not be afected by debuffs, it's the perfect skill that it does both offense and defense without adding damage to you...but no everyone thinks im OP for ussing wynn, i win- im OP /unkilable, i die- im a noob/i suck. Coming from archers. lol :evil:

Seriously i liked exile cause i can protect the healer, i liked Knight's idea of "exile uncleansable" since yea it's another freaking dimension...!

Also to add back magical pets as it woudl fit wynn, they would need to fix the buggy feature of comign back and forth, that ass delay on the pets and the ass delay when im trying to heal the pet (which it tries to open the pet window and doesnt heal right away).

What do you call a debuff that prevents Celestials and Purges on any target that cannot force themselves out of the fight?

The reason why a lot of suggestions are OP to me is because they are, and people who make suggestions for their own class often go a bit overboard in doing so. It's fairly natural to do so. It happens all the time in every game. It's why Dev teams (in most games, even in their main markets) ignore the vast majority of player input.

From my experience, most of the back and forth with pets happen when you try to spam a skill. Don't spam the skill, press it once and let them go.

As long as the Grim Reapers get 1100 range on all their skills and they fix the Magic Stat Scaling and Auto Attack is changed to a Spike Magic Nuke type skill, the reapers shoud be fine. They'd also need to decrease the PvP damage penalty as there is a lot of gear that pets simply do not scale off of properly (epics, set bonuses, etc.).

The entire debuff system in this game is super bad and was a failed experiment to try to introduce more skill-based gameplay into the game. It just doesn't work well, especially on servers/in territories where programs have become so widely used.


Here's how I would change the summoner classes

http://pastebin.com/sAs6v571

Basically making it more debuff oriented, reducing the summoners own power while increasing the servitors' power. Their pve DPS is slightly higher and pvp DPS slightly lower. Servitor's will be relying on skill attacks to deal damage in pvp. The new rage skill will give servitors a good boost in damage in mass pvp while being infrequent in 1v1s. The summoner will have cooldowns to reach its former pvp damage and increasing its debuff land rate while having more debuffs between itself and new servitors to boost its role in mass pvp as a debuff/support DD class.

Overall shifting power to the summons, better debuffer, added cooldowns for more strategic use. The downfall being where to put all these skills on your bar...

Elmar wrote:I hate to interrupt the Summoner discussion, but something interesting has come up in Korea. A lvl 99 Maestro from Lionel proudly announced that he now has +15 LUC, but players in the discussion thread were not impressed. Unless this is a colloquial way of speaking on the part of the Korean players, Luck is a trigger/발동/发动 thing, and you get a system message when it triggers. In the thread they are discussing Luck under the aspect of overenchanting, and the success rate of a tatooed overenchanter is less than hoped for. The consensus is that the investment for dyes is much higher than the money you can make with +15 LUC:
http://lineage2.plaync.com/board/image/ ... eId=570790


I already knew deep down that LUC was a worthless stat.
User avatar
KnightOfDarkness
 
Posts: 1093
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:04 am

Strangers

Postby Draecke » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:10 pm

guys not to be mean but we got class dedicated topics and this spam on summoners makes me stop reading this section..
Draecke
 
Posts: 1715
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:34 pm

Re: Strangers

Postby Illogical » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:53 pm

I'm sorry that I sparked this Draecke.
But I recall dismiss cursing all over hero voice how hard it has become for a Wynn to kill an Othell. But maybe that's because he got Othell wave after wave.
Illogical
 
Posts: 615
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:42 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Summoner Classes

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest