Summoners in Valiance and onwards

Strangers

Postby KnightOfDarkness » Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:18 am

Mind you I would prefer a summon that deals repetitive damage with 518 skill power while reapplying a debuff with that short of a reuse but that would be silly. :)
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Re: Strangers

Postby ZeroX » Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:42 pm

Would be imba,i guess this skill is weaker version of "chaos symphony" from iss. :D
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Re: Strangers

Postby KnightOfDarkness » Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:29 am

Its an AOE version of the new sayha's seer's skill. Does the exact same thing only with 4x longer cooldown, less power but AOE.
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Re: Strangers

Postby Illogical » Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:57 am

Elmar wrote:Here is the Google-translateable skill description:
http://lineage2.power.plaync.com/wiki/% ... C%EC%8A%A4

Please note that in addition to the 3 Spirit Ore you need for summoning the Phantom Cross, the Powerwiki lists 8 "Runestones"/룬스톤 you need for learning the skill. Those Runestones are dropping from Istina, Octavis, Balok, Ekimus and Tiat:
http://lineage2.qna.plaync.com/content.php?no=84550


Looks promising, but sadly I have the feeling that Phantom Cross will be as ineffective as Death Gate. The damage from Death Gate is great (PvE wise), but the debuff effect (just like Avenger Cubic) barely lands even on players below 97 (also mobs in Crossroads/LoC/HB are not affected by it's Root effect). I have the feeling Phantom Cross will have the same result; promising skill with minimum outcome. Especially if it has to be casted like Death Gate; totally life killer in PvP. I have the feeling they're trying to salvage the wreckage they caused by destroying Wynns in past year. But the only way to salvage that wreckage is to bring back a 3rd Servitor at lv99, reduce re-summon time from 30 to 5 seconds like Feoh Soultakers have and add in a useful Mass skill like Mass Mark of Weakness.
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Re: Strangers

Postby KnightOfDarkness » Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:02 pm

Wynn summoners are actually pretty balanced vs Feoh Soultakers its just the wynn summoner has to put forth a lot more effort skillwise to win. Its always been like that but this time around there's less time to think since everyone does so much more damage. And really between curse gloom and devil's curse, wizard spirit and double casting a feoh soultaker can deal ~3x more DPS to the summoner than the summoner can to it so it really does have to utilize its counters very quickly. The hardest things to deal with being the unbind that everyone has and shadow snare, especially a scripted one due to the wynn's limited mobility and dependence on key skills with mild reuses.

I don't think the Phantom Cross will be as ineffective or worse than Death Gate. It is a skill that feeds off the stats of the summoner as per description and so far there hasn't been a slowing type skill that's had a bad landing rate since GoD has came out yet. Even the melee pets (with pets being notorious for having bad landing rates thats even worse compared to players with epics) land their slow 90% of the time.

As per salvaging the wynn summoner, it just needs to focus on its debuffing/damage support role and stop trying to merge with feoh wizards whos role is strictly aoe damage. It needs to do it uniquely as well to not be compared to tyrr warriors whis role is to disable (disarms, stuns, knockdowns). Creating new effective cubics and a mass version of one would help. Like each wynn gets a standard cubic that does the same thing like for example a cubic that did a target cancel and then an offensive cubic for spectral masters like a 3 second physical/magic silence, defensive for elemental masters like a 3 second debuff immunity and mixed for arcana lords like a 3 second 50% debuff reflect and mass cubic versions of them. For a class that spends a good deal of time targeting pets or simply moving and not casting at the enemy, good working cubics will definitely help the class a lot, stick with its debuffing role and still will be summoning magic rather than shoving it more into the feoh wizard pile and also keep it from becoming over the top pve kings like they're trying to keep wynns from becoming
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Re: Strangers

Postby Illogical » Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:55 pm

Maybe... but why does a Damage Dealer mage, like Soultaker have a recast time for it's servitor faster than the actual Summoner class that relies on it's servitor to survive and deal damage. Marks are nice, but vs. scripted party they don't do damage because healer cleans it to fast (almost instantly). PvP wise even with high enchanted 'Chance' Marks you do nothing vs. many classes due to resists.

If the Wynn Summoner is a supporting debuffer, why isn't it able to do supportive (and effective) debuffing for AoE? At least before Awakening you had Mass Surrender to Wind along with Mass Cubic without having an actual AoE skill. Now you can debuff only one single target, while you have Invoke (strong enough in both PvE/PvP AoE) and Reaper Power for the AoE with Servitor.

Also, the core of being summoner is being the solo machine. Ever since I rerolled from Necromancer in C4 to Phantom Summoner in C5 I was able to survive on my own with my Warcryer all way up to 85. With Goddess of Destruction this got pushed to 92-93, if I would've had Isle of Souls back than I am sure I would be able to had hit lv99 on pure solo game play. If I remember correctly, NCSoft teased all summoners as early as Freya Patch (maybe even Kamael patch) with bringing multiply summons. When it happened they quickly nerfed it down again because of the potential. Yes, I was doing solo xp in SoA and GoG at 90 just because of having 3x Cougar. But isn't that what the summoner class was designed to be way way back? Especially with the Phantom Summoner's Shadow with it's passive VR.

Anyway... I'm getting off the point.

Creating new effective cubics and a mass version of one would help. Like each wynn gets a standard cubic that does the same thing like for example a cubic that did a target cancel and then an offensive cubic for spectral masters like a 3 second physical/magic silence, defensive for elemental masters like a 3 second debuff immunity and mixed for arcana lords like a 3 second 50% debuff reflect and mass cubic versions of them. For a class that spends a good deal of time targeting pets or simply moving and not casting at the enemy, good working cubics will definitely help the class a lot, stick with its debuffing role and still will be summoning magic rather than shoving it more into the feoh wizard pile and also keep it from becoming over the top pve kings like they're trying to keep wynns from becoming


Totally agree on the cubics. With the tanks all getting their cubics back I hoped for this long ago to happen to Wynn aswell, but no...
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Re: Strangers

Postby KnightOfDarkness » Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:58 am

I have no idea. For a class that can forcibly remove their summon and resummon it back (with an extremely short reuse), they should be have at least the same penalty as Wynn summoners for losing their summons since its so easy to keep it alive. Why the designed it like this I have no idea and I never know what goes through those korean minds for anything.

Marks are mostly for reducing the offensive and offensive ability of different classes but compared to stuns, paralyzes, and knockdowns its not effective. The DOT damage is only nice in 1v1s for simply stalling. It doesn't do enough damage to be anything worthwhile. Even the magic criticals on marks aren't good ever since you can't use them on exiled/stoned targets. Since you can simply critical more and harder with your own nukes when you actually have gear which leads back into a major issue of summoners in general. Bad scaling. Marks don't scale at all and summons scale very poorly. Its already a bad system considering that you're trying to increase your summons physical stats by increasing your own bad physical stats and in the end, its not worth the effort. The scaling would work better for grim reapers had they lower M.attk and higher skill power. It worked a lot better in the beginning when there were 4 reapers that went from 18k to 24k M.atk rather than 2 reapers going from 60k to 64k m.atk as now the bonus M.atk to reapers is just meaningless. Now in the next update there's no m.atk bonus to the link trigger buffs anyway dissuading the use of reapers which are actually better for pvp damage wise due to everyone's lower M.def compared to P.def. So while you remain solid compared to noobs, you lack compared to stacked players.

All in all your own DPS is well over other ranged DDs but that leads to main problem number 2. Every other DD class can sky rocket their kill power while summoners can not and for a class that already has lackluster debuffing ability, thats not good. Ironically a debuffing class relies on DD classes' debuffs to deal high DPS like them when it should be the other way around. Also its mode defense is now inferior to a mage that already outclasses it offensively which is just amazing. Now in a 1v1 scenario, the summoner can stay on an even level with the soultaker through skilled use but when comparing each class going out to kill people, the soultaker will not only live longer but score a lot more kills than a summoner and thats considering that people don't simply BSOE from a summoner that slowly beats them down.

Another thing is just a weird game mechanic. The fact that you have to quickly apply debuffs and kill to get a player down with a healer nearby, or a healer itself. Summoners simply take too long to do this. Considering it has to cast 4 times to do 3 attacks that isn't enough burst on its own to deal any critical damage, it has to rely on others to do those 3 strings of 14k Crits with mark retriever wheres on its own it does 3 strings of 7k crits. In the meantime its a race to use mark retriever before all the marks are cleansed off and considering you already have about a 70-80% chance to land marks against even players without skills like berserker rage, guts, UE, etc. You're going to miss a few anyway.

AOE wise, its only supporting AOE debuff is death gate which is often and only works best with shadow snare and which I always thought that with the way death gate looks it would do a shadow snare towards itself and hold players to it rather than a mass root and damage. Basically being a gate that pulls people inside to their death which is a much more useful feature than a root trap that fires off a few times before dying instead of once like a normal root trap.

The summoner is still able to solo well, there's just no good solo places and when the gravity rancors come out, they will be the solo and raid boss killing beasts why still being useful in pvp as a melee feoh wizard, dealing high sustained DPS.

Honestly I wouldn't mind a 3rd summon and an extra summon thats just focused on debuffing like the hellknight's panther only not as pathetic. The tank pets were a step in the right direction only outside of using aggression, the stun and root skills simply don't land in pvp. So having pvp summons and cubics that don't do the same as every other class (root, lift, stun, paralyze) that make it into an unstoppable god.

And lastly some strong skills with long reuses that make a difference in pvp such as a 10 second AOE mark of trick/weakness combo like they made before in a pts with a 2 minute reuse, a 10 second celestial shield for servitors with a 5 minute reuse. An even crazier idea. Make a 99 skill where you can summon a temporary group of kat the cats to zerg people every 10 minutes. Shadow clones for summoners. Basically something you can hit to counter skills like UE,berserker rage, guts, double casting, purge... skills that absolutely turn the tides of fights and leaving you to look at your skill bar and realizing you can't do anything close in comparison.

That being said. It still is a solid class in team efforts. It won't die quickly under progressive heals, it will do amazing damage when feeding off other's debuffs, and it will disrupt people enough with mark of trick and servitor provokes to stop someone from killing a party member or open a healer to be quickly assisted down and destroyed. It just doesn't do it as good as a dagger or a tyrr warrior which can stop and kill people even more easily despite both classes having a lot more survivability. Especially daggers which are without a doubt the hardest hitting and hardest to kill class there is now. And my oh my the amount of hidden nerfs is astounding. Like the recent nerf to mark of weakness and mark of plague's DOT damage that wasn't listed anywhere.


Sorry Elmar, I swear we always turn every topic on here into a summoner discussion at some point.
Last edited by KnightOfDarkness on Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Strangers

Postby random » Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:16 am

It's rochand version of Godwin's Law :D. "As a gameplay discussion grows longer, the probability of the topic involving summoners approaches 1."
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Re: Strangers

Postby KnightOfDarkness » Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:41 am

random wrote:It's rochand version of Godwin's Law :D. "As a gameplay discussion grows longer, the probability of the topic involving summoners approaches 1."


:lol: Somehow it always happens! Its like when the grammar nazis were on the loose. Oh wait there, just mentioned nazis and hitler.
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Re: Strangers

Postby Illogical » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:56 am

I didn't intent on going into full pro-Summoner mode. I love my class and I'll never drop it, but with the Valiance patch a lot of power was taken away from it due to removal of the Loyality system and replacing it with the 2% chance of Rage. Which as you said; doesn't do anything for your magic-based Reaper. The Loyality system was a vital part of Summoners solo abilities, making your Summons get stronger when you're under attack. The Loyality even triggered in PvP, good luck getting Rage up in a current PvP scenario. You cannot spam Marks, Retriever, Invoke, Exile on the right targets AND Spectral Rage. It's just impossible.

All the things you said are true, no argue about that. It's just sad that people that play Summoner for the Summoner-class and not because they want an easy Dual Class (or back when Goddess just launched, all rolled Wynn because 3x Cougar was unbeatable solo exp) are being stripped bit by bit from the things that made them so powerful and fun to play.

I have the discussion in clan every now and than, when I whine about how OP Daggers have become. People still think as Summoners to be the early lv90's nuclear weapons able to destroy anything in seconds, while the truth it, after level 95 you don't really gain any strength nor game changing skill. While other classes get awesome skills at 97 (Camouflage, Power Provoke, Mass Trick) the Wynn is left with Replace. A hard to execute skill that has a to slow casting time, to long reuse and is lacking range and effectiveness. And every update I pray they do something about it and introduce something that will balance it out.
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